@jono	jordi, woo!
sabdfl	hey jordi!
jordi	hmm, seems I can't change the topic
jordi	too bad
tonyyarusso	jordi: Tell me what you'd like in /msg and it's yours.
jordi	The session is Translations with Rosetta :)
givre	sabdfl: i think that make an advance option in the installer to disable restricted repo https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022596.html , just like suggested collin watson should make everybody happy. Just my 2 cents
dneary	jordi: I'm here for you :)
jordi	Ok, so for those who don't know me, I'm Jordi Mallach, and I've been involved with the Rosetta team trying to be the link between the development team and the Ubuntu translators and rosetta users
@tonyyarusso	hmm
jordi	tonyyarusso: just "Rosetta" then :)
stalefries_away	or perhaps cut down on the info
jordi	let's get moving
jordi	The Rosetta Translation Portal
jordi	Rosetta is one of the components that make up “Launchpad”,
jordi	Canonical's service platform.
jordi	Launchpad is made up of five major components: a bug tracker, a
jordi	request tracker, a specification tracker, a "source code"
jordi	supermirror and Rosetta, a web-based translation portal.
jordi	Christian Reis will talk tomorrow about Launchpad in general, so
jordi	let's focus on Rosetta.
jordi	Rosetta's aim is to make translation of Free Software as easy and
jordi	non-technical as it can get. The Rosetta team has been working on
jordi	creating an interface which hides the specifics of the Gettext PO
jordi	file format, which is the standard for translating Free Software,
jordi	thus lowering the barrier so anyone with a reasonable knowledge
jordi	of English can help out with the translations of their favourite
jordi	project into their mother tongue.
jordi	(please say if I'm too fast, I'm worried about lack of time)
jordi	Rosetta is the main translation system of Ubuntu Linux, and is
jordi	the source of all translations which appear in the Ubuntu
jordi	releases, and in the frequently updated “langpacks”. Rosetta is
jordi	also designed to help program authors getting their applications
jordi	translated.
jordi	A close look on the Gettext PO file format
jordi	==========================================
jordi	Most of the software in your desktops use a standard translation
jordi	interface called GNU gettext, which is in charge of showing the
jordi	applications in the language the user has chosen. Application
jordi	programmers need to take care of marking all the user-visible
jordi	messages (or strings, as the initiated tend to call them) with a
jordi	special marker which can be extracted to plain text ".po" files.
jordi	We translators use these files to translate the applications.
jordi	Let's look at how a PO file looks. I've put some examples in
jordi	http://pusa.informat.uv.es/~jordi/ubuntu-school/
jordi	Have a look at the ubuntu-school.pot file. A POT file is a "PO
jordi	Template", that is, an empty PO file ready to be translated.
jordi	Looking at the contents of the file, you can see the format is
jordi	pretty straight forward: each original string in English (a
jordi	msgid) has its corresponding translation (msgstr). While simple,
jordi	the po format is quite fragile. One missing quote, and your
jordi	entire application build will fail with a syntax error. There are
jordi	several very popular PO file editors which help the editing
jordi	process: KBabel, PoEdit, GTranslator, Emacs PO-mode...
jordi	Rosetta goes one step further in easing the translation of these
jordi	PO files, using a clean, web-based interface which hides the
jordi	format, presenting only sets of string/translation pairs that you
jordi	can fill up. Once the work is done, it's stored in its database
jordi	where the information can be exported or shared among other
jordi	projects.
jordi	Using Rosetta's Web Interface
jordi	Rosetta is, as hinted before, divided in two main branches: one
jordi	serves to translate the applications of the people who request
jordi	it. For example, the Gobby collaborative editor is being
jordi	translated by Rosetta contributors, after its authors requested
jordi	us to set it up for them in Rosetta. On the other hand, Rosetta
jordi	is the platform from where Ubuntu gets all its translations.
jordi	We'll focus on Ubuntu a bit more now.
jordi	Ubuntu translations revolve around the Ubuntu translation teams,
jordi	which coordinate and produce the translations which get shipped
jordi	with every new version.
jordi	https://launchpad.net/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators
jordi	Here you'll see a list of teams which belong to the Ubuntu
jordi	translation teams. While Rosetta is open enough to let everyone
jordi	with a Launchpad account contribute, there is need for some
jordi	access control, to protect quality, avoid vandalism, etc. Being
jordi	part of one of the translation teams grants you "write" access to
jordi	every translation for that language in Ubuntu. Still, if you're
jordi	not a member of your language's team, you can still go ahead and
jordi	translate. Your contributions will be also stored in Rosetta's
jordi	database as "suggestions", but won't appear in Ubuntu's language
jordi	packs until a member of the team reviews and validates them.
jordi	Rosetta offers a long list of applications that can be
jordi	translated. Taking the French team as an example,
jordi
jordi	https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/fr
jordi	we can have a look at how their translation status is for the
jordi	Ubuntu Edgy release. I like showing the French team because they
jordi	are really an amazing example of completeness.
jordi	woops
jordi	this had to happen today, I new it
jordi	my router just rebooted :O)
ivoks	hehe
@jono	:P
jordi	Rosetta presents us a list of applications which are ready to be
jordi	translated to French, and their current translation status. As
jordi	you see, the French have done their homework and there's barely
jordi	no red bars, meaning "untranslated". See the bottom of the
jordi	page for the meaning of the bar colours.
jordi	The list is ordered from most important to less important
jordi	Let's see how we'd translate an application. Close to the top of
jordi	the list is "launchpad-integration". We'll pick this one as it's
jordi	easy and short.
jordi	https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/launchpad-integration/+pots/launchpad-integration/fr/+translate
jordi	okay, I just started to look at the questions in the chat channel
jordi	I'll try to paste them here now, sorry about that ;)
waod	LOL
jordi	If instead of French you want to have a look at your own
waod	14:38 < mogaal> Soy bruto
jordi	language's translation, simply replace "/fr" in the URL with the
jordi	corresponding ISO 639 code. You can find the code for your
jordi	language here:
jordi	http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
waod	14:38 < mogaal> Comprende :(
jordi	In our case, the first string is "The Launchpad helper
jordi	application failed", which is already translated to French as
jordi	"L'assistant Launchpad a échoué". Below the accepted translation
jordi	there is a list of alternative translations suggested by other
jordi	people. You can quickly navigate through the translation fields
jordi	using the tab key. Once you have completed all the strings in a
jordi	page, you want to save your work: hit "Save & Continue" at the
jordi	bottom, and if there are more strings to do, Rosetta will then
jordi	show them to you.
jordi	There are other bits that can help the translators while they
jordi	work on a translation: you might want to see what the translators
jordi	to a language similar to yours used in a string that is hard to
jordi	translate, for inspiration. You can get such information using
jordi	the "Make suggestions from" widget at the top of the string list.
jordi	Also, you'll be more interested in seeing the strings that need
jordi	work instead of those which are translated already. You can
jordi	filter the kind of messages you want to see using the "Show"
jordi	widget, where you can select from "all", "unstranslated",
jordi	"translated" and "needs review".
jordi	20:20 < neophile> QUESTION: Is it possible to search for a string in the translation? That's major drawback when trying to correct translations. Is a search feature planned for rosseta in the near future?
jordi	It's currently not possible to search for a string easily
jordi	it is one of the most requested (and no doubtely most useful) features, and we do plan to add it
jordi	the implementation isn't trivial though, as the database is huge and there are some perdformance issues to solve
jordi	But yes, the team will focus on providing it as soon as possible
jordi	Using Rosetta's import/export interface
jordi	While the web interface has allowed many Ubuntu users help out
jordi	with the translations to their language, there's certainly
jordi	die-hard, old-time translators who will prefer using their own
jordi	tools (obscure emacs modules and weird command line tools!) to
jordi	work on their translations. Or there might be people who cannot
jordi	afford to be online during the whole translating session.
jordi	To help them, Rosetta has an import/export mechanism, which
jordi	allows you to easily upload translations you have worked on
jordi	offline, using your own ways, but you still want to see
jordi	integrated in Rosetta, and download your finalised files so you
jordi	can do whatever you want with them: back them up, send them to
jordi	your team's mailing list, send them to the upstream author so
jordi	they get included in the next release...
jordi	Importing and exporting is easy: to download your work, use the "Download" and "Upload file" links in the boxes at the left side
jordi	When requesting a download, Launchpad will prepare the file for you and will email you the location of the desired export.
jordi	Importing is similar. Just fill in the field with the location path to your file, and rosetta will integrate it in the database
jordi	I translated all night long. What now?
jordi	======================================
jordi	Okay, so you've worked on the files you were interested in, and
jordi	Rosetta now has all the info. What happens now?
jordi	Ubuntu will, on a monthly basis, extract all the translations
jordi	from the database and put them in the "language packs" for each
jordi	supported language in the distro, which will automatically hit
jordi	your Ubuntu mirror the 1st Monday of the month. This way, Rosetta
jordi	allows people to keep improving the support for their language
jordi	even after a Ubuntu release has shipped. For example, more than 6
jordi	months after the release of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, there's a group
jordi	working on adding Dzonghka support to Ubuntu, when there was
jordi	close to nothing included in dapper initially.
jordi	I see there's many interesting questions going on, so I propose we go on with Q+A, trying to focus on the classics: Rosetta and upstream relationship, etc.
jordi	20:24 < bugman> QUESTION: In https://translations.launchpad.net/people/bugman/+translations for example, is possible to implements the view of all string translated for a package and not only the last?
jordi	bugman: it's possible, yes. These are wishlist features, though, and will get a lower priority than say "search a string"
jordi	but the info is in the database, so it's prefectly possible to show the info
jordi	it's important that bugs are filed against rosetta requesting these things
bugman	jordi: ok :-)
jordi	20:26 < dneary> QUESTION: What's the recommended workflow for updating .po files outside Launchpad for the moment?
jordi	dneary: can you be more specific?
jordi	there's several scenarios: gnome-panel or launchpad-integration, for example
ivoks	jordi: he asks if he could see all his translations in one package
ivoks	just his own
ivoks	or someone elses
jordi	ivoks: bugman?
ivoks	yes
jordi	oh, I see.
dneary	jordi: It's related to bug #68014
jordi	Well, tha can be done too
ivoks	urgh.. sorry lag :)
bugman	:)
jordi	(please give me full malone urls so I can open fast)
dneary	jordi: It seems like uploading .po files doesn't automatically update translations at the moment (if I understand the problem)
Gwaihir	jordi: https://launchpad.net/bugs/68014
jordi	dneary: right, the import mechanism is restricted right now, while a nasty bug involving reverted translñations is tracked down
dneary	Some translations were lost, so on the 1st of November, the upload form was disabled
jordi	for the time being, mailing rosetta@launchpad.net with import requests is the recommended way
dneary	So - what's the reccommended workflow for people working on .po files outside teh tree while that bug is being fixed?
dneary	jordi: OK - thanks :)
jordi	although I hope we'll go back to normal operation rsn -- aiui the bug fixing is making progress
dneary	I was typing rather than reading
dneary	cool
jordi	20:27 < dand> QUESTION: any packages in Rosetta that sync automatically with upstream? if yes, are they marked somehow in Launchpad and how often do they sync?
jordi	good one: this doesn't happen right now, but is a desired feature
jordi	this would allow minimise the "conflicts" between rosetta and upstream preojects (KDE, GNOME...) translations
jordi	so if some translator has rights to translate both on Ubuntu and GNOME CVS, a translation inserted in Rosetta could be exported to GNOME
jordi	we want this, but it'll won't be here before some time
dand	alright, thanks :)
jordi	20:27 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is it possible to have a --use-fuzzy implementation for exporting mo files?
jordi	Gwaihir: as far as I know, we don't do this now because Rosetta generates fuzzies using its own knowledge. I guess it'd be easy to add an option to generate files with fuzzies, yes. Is there a bug filed?
jordi	20:29 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is there any difference between "fuzzy string" in po and "Need review" in Rosetta?
jordi	I've gone over this as I wanted to keep the text dump simple
jordi	but yeah, needs review can map to fuzzy
jordi	some teams do use it as in the strict "needs review" sense though
jordi	ie, theey translate it, but if they are not sure, they use the mark so others can easily find the unsure strungs
jordi	strings even
ivoks	right, that's common practice
jordi	20:29 < somerville32> QUESTION: How does a member of a translation team approve suggested translations?
jordi	The current implementation is built on very complex copy and paste technology :)
ivoks	(could we get a checkbox instead?) :)
jordi	we do have plans to have the checkbox :)
pepsiman	jordi: there's a greasemonkey script which helps
jordi	I'm a bit on time pressure I guess, otherwise I'd dig the relevant spec urls
danilos	Gwaihir: another thing to note: currently, both fuzzy and string needing review is implemented using the same mechanism in rosetta; there is, however, a plan to separate these out and put them to their right meanings (i.e. fuzzy == machine-selected "similar" string; needs review == human selected "unsure" string)
bugman	ivoks: i written a spec on this but it was rejected
jordi	danilos, maybe you can find some of the relevant ones so people can read over them
jordi	danilos is one of the main rosetta coders. Woo! :)
jordi	20:31 < somerville32> QUESTION: If I suggest a translation and then join the translation team later, are all my suggested translations automatically approved?
jordi	somerville32: no, as far as I know. That could be dangerous on some cases, actually
jordi	but it might be a good idea to do it if the string was unstranslated
somerville32	So I have to go and redo all my work? haha
jordi	I can't stress enough that having bug reports for all the requests is really helpful
jordi	20:32 < dand> QUESTION: any plans so far on opening Rosetta for contributions?
jordi	dand: "opening", I assume you mean opening the source code
dand	yeah
danilos	on dneary's QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
Gwaihir	jordi: for the --use-fuzzy question I've a bug was opened: https://launchpad.net/bugs/70974
danilos	dneary: yes, Rosetta keeps a history of all translation contributions
jordi	There's sabdfl's statement that Launchpad will be freed when the project is ready to do so. We can't give dates or estimations on when that might happen.
jordi	There are people helping out with Launchpad on a NDA basis, though.
jordi	Gwaihir: thanks
dand	jordi: k, thanks
jordi	20:36 < bugman> QUESTION: It's possibile to hava a Wiki page (or other similar) for see LangPack scheduling?
Gwaihir	jordi: you are welcome!
jordi	bugman: the general rule is "1st Monday of the month". We chose this because it's easy to remember. I'm sure this is written up somewhere though, can't find a pointer irght now
bugman	jordi: ok thanks
danilos	dneary: but no, we don't have the level of details you wonder about (when string has moved from suggestion to approved, etc.)
jordi	there's a Plan™ to write docs pointing these things clearly
jordi	20:36 < dneary> QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
jordi	a feature showing how a string has changed over time has just been rolled onto production, and Rosetta is now gathering this info
jordi	This will be good to help team leaders track bad translators
jordi	20:40 < neophile> QUESTION: Where someone should translate a package, in head brunch or in the edgy brunch?
dneary	jordi: danilos already answered that - thanks to you both
jordi	neversfelde_: this very much depends on the specific packages
jordi	we have a feature on our queue, which will allow someone translating gnome-panel in edgy "push" that same translation to dapper, feisty, or GNOME CVS HEAD if applicable
jordi	so you just have to translate once
ivoks	that would be awsome
jordi	neversfelde_: of course, if you translate the Panel in GNOME CVS, that translation will automagically percolate to the next ubuntu release
jordi	this gets us to the "working with upstream" chapter
jordi	while rosetta is a great tool to get ubuntu translated verfy easily, it's vital that the translation teams cooperate with their upstream teams
jordi	ie, the French Ubuntu team should be in contact with the French GNOME team, so they use the same guidelines, etc
jordi	or don't duplicate efforts
bugman	yes is the same with itlian team
bugman	* italian
jordi	we've had problems with some teams redoing all the work in Rosetta, which resulted in a completely different set of translations in Ubuntu and other distros.
jordi	The "translation override" feature in rosetta is powerful and useful if used wisely. If it goes out of control, it can cause frictiuons between teams.
jordi	We need to work on that, I believe it's a procedural problem which can be mostly solved by educating new translators which join the ubuntu teams
jordi	there's been quite some talk on this on the rosetta list, and teams like italian or Brazilian have already implemented some measures to work nicely with their upstreams
Amaranth	metacity
bugman	i quit, thanks jordi :-)
Amaranth	beryl-manager
jordi	20:45 < aleka> QUESTION: If I am eager to help the Ubuntu community, and the only way I can right now if through translation, What Can I do when the admin of a team does not respond to my requests or approve my membership to the team?
jordi	good one!
jordi	aleka: we're seeing this every now and then
jordi	the best and quickest way is to mail us at rosetta@launchpad.net
pepsiman	lots of people apply to teams without telling the team leader their email address
jordi	and we'll mediaate
jordi	ie, we'll try to contact the current leader. If he doesn't respont, we'll transfer leadership to whoever we think deserves it (ie, whoever wants to do the work ;)
jordi	pepsiman: good point. That's bad, and I've suffered that myself.
jordi	danilos: we should think on some way to circumvent this, when a leader can't contact a member because there's no public email address
danilos	<dneary> QUESTION: We have had some issues with translations where people outside the project translated things badly, and we couldn't easily revert to the correct translation - how can I configure our translation to make sure only approved translation team members can do the translation?
jordi	danilos: want to answer that one?
danilos	dneary: at the moment, members of the translation team should only be those you trust; in other words, anyone who is member of your translation team can approve/modify translations
dneary	And only translation team members can do translations?
dneary	Thanks
jordi	right, we ACK that there's oversized teams right now.
jordi	dneary: if the given project is setup up like that, yes
danilos	dneary: yes; anyone else can post suggestions -- we'll work on improving team layout (and docs), so this is clear to everybody
jordi	20:51 < tonyyarusso> QUESTION: Does Rosetta have some method for handling dialects?  I'm just getting the ball rolling for a language (oji) that varies widely (esp. for technical terms)
jordi	tonyyarusso: not yet, but both danilos and I are involved with teams which would benefit of dialect support
jordi	We really want to see this happen, but it's not high priority right now
jordi	20:53 < somerville32> QUESTION: How do you know if a translation is suggested or approved?
tonyyarusso	jordi: What is the best way to approach things for the time being then until it is implemented?
jordi	a approved translation appears in the translation field
jordi	suggestions appear as suggestions beneath it
danilos	jordi: as far as unresponsive team leaders, we can establish regular "checks" with team leaders; but that's something I feel ubuntu l10n coordinator should handle, since it's not a direct rosetta issue
jordi	danilos: ^ want to answer that one?
danilos	jordi: sure
jordi	yeah, we haven't mentioned the coordinator at all
jordi	20:53 < dneary> QUESTION: Can I export translations in other formats than .po?
jordi	dneary: no, Rosetta currently only groks po files
jordi	although it will soon be able to export firefox and openoffice data via langpacks.
metatecque	QUESTION - is Brandon here yet - isn't the open kubuntu discussion scheduled to start now?
danilos	somerville32: any actual translation is the approved one; suggestions only appear as "suggestions"
somerville32	kk
jordi	but not via the standard export mechanism as far as I know, danilos can correct me
dneary	So I need to do a post-processing move to generate a .ts?
imbrandon	moins all ( sorry i'm really lagging here )
jordi	20:57 < dneary> QUESTION: What happens in Rosetta when an overridden string gets changed in a later revision of the upstream translation?
danilos	dneary: btw, we're working on adding native support for other formats right now; first to come should be firefox XPIs, OpenOffice GSI's, KDE PO files, but we also have plans for XLIFF and others
jordi	Rosetta has a "tracker" which makes it think it should follow what comes from upstram or not.
imbrandon	jordi: ping me when you wrap it up i'm going to try to fix my lag issue
jordi	In short, if you change a string, forking it to something different, it'll stay forked unless you put the upstram string back again.
dneary	jordi: How do you get to decide?
jordi	We want to implement a filter so it's easy to find these strings and do a "merge with upstream" for them, etc.
dneary	Is there a fuzziness thing that shows you changed over-ridden strings?
jordi	imbrandon: okay
jordi	just kick us out when you're ready
jordi	dneary: no, there's proposals to mark them as such
jordi	hasn't happened yet
jordi	21:01 < aleka> QUESTION: where can I get help in aquiring fonts that I need for translating (Amharic - ethiopic fonts) that work in Linux. This question emailed to team leader twice and no response..
jordi	aleka: you might want to ask in the ubuntu-devel list
jordi	mark shuttleworth has big interest in getting ubuntu working out of the box for special script like yours
jordi	if there are free fonts, it should be easy.
imbrandon	ok jordi i think i'm fixed up here
danilos	aleka: finding that information is sometimes even hard for the team leader, since it might be scattered all over internet
jordi	just on time, because we're done with the questions
imbrandon	:)
jordi	Thanks everyone, and thanks danilo!
jordi	next, Kubuntu!
ivoks	thank you jordi and danilos
kappa	thanks, jordi and danilos!
danilos	everyone else, feel free to ping us whenever you've got questions :)
ivoks	watch out, ping flood :)

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