16:00 < Lure> djay-il: ask in -chat or in #kubuntu-devel 16:01 < LaserJock> ok, I think that's my queue 16:01 < LaserJock> Hello everybody! 16:01 < LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a PhD Chemistry student and Ubuntu volunteer. 16:01 < djay-il> Lure, even if its not really technical? 16:01 < LaserJock> In Ubuntu I'm a Universe developer, a part of the Documentation Team, on the Edubuntu Council, and am just generally an Ubuntu-holic. 16:01 < LaserJock> Today I want to talk a little about what how we maintain software once it's already in our software repositories (Main, Restricted, Universe, Multiverse) 16:01 < LaserJock> First of all, in order to keep the noise level down a bit in here, please also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat and when you want to ask a question just put a "Question:" in front of your question. Thanks. 16:02 < LaserJock> To be honest I don't have a full hour of lecturing ready 16:02 < LaserJock> and everybody goes "Yay!" 16:02 < finalbeta> yay 16:02 < tictacaddict> Yay! 16:03 < somerville32> :) 16:03 < LaserJock> so I'll start out with some material and then open it up for some Q & A 16:03 < LaserJock> I think there are 2 things that are important to keep in mind here: 16:03 < LaserJock> 1. Ubuntu is intimately connected to Debian 16:03 < LaserJock> 2. Ubuntu uses Launchpad ( http://launchpad.net ) for virtually all package maintenance 16:03 < LaserJock> Let's look at both of those a little more carefully. 16:04 < LaserJock> Ubuntu, as most of you probably know, is derived from Debian 16:04 < LaserJock> which is one of the oldest Linux distros around 16:04 < LaserJock> At the beginning of every Ubuntu development cycle the archive admins update the Ubuntu development repository with the packages that are currently in Debian unstable (Sid). 16:04 < LaserJock> If the package was previously changed or modified by Ubuntu it will have ubuntu in the version (alacarte's version in 6.10 is 0.10.1-0ubuntu1 for instance). 16:05 < LaserJock> If the package has an ubuntu version then it won't be "synced" automatically, but instead a special script called Merge-o-Matic (MoM) will try to merge the changes as best it can and spit out a report on http://merges.ubuntu.com 16:05 < LaserJock> *Every* updated package that previously had Ubuntu changes is checked manually and either merged if the old changes are still needed or synced if they can be dropped. This takes a fair amount of time and accounts for a lot of the maintenance work we do in Ubuntu. 16:05 < LaserJock> In Universe our primary goal is the manage (and minimize) the divergence we create from Debian. In Main there is a bit more emphasis on going beyond just managing divergence and really into developing and leading the way in desktop development. 16:06 < LaserJock> Because of our intimate connection it is important that we keep at least some track of what's going on in Debian. We do this primarily via the Debian Bug Tracking System (BTS) 16:06 < LaserJock> http://bugs.debian.org 16:06 < LaserJock> and Package Tracking System (PTS) 16:06 < LaserJock> http://packages.qa.debian.org 16:06 < LaserJock> This allows us to keep track of Debian versions and bug fixes. 16:07 < LaserJock> OK, so now I'll give you a little time to digest all that and ask any questions so far 16:08 < LaserJock> nice, I see I've explained everything perfectly :-) 16:08 < tictacaddict> I have a question 16:08 < LaserJock> shoot 16:08 < tictacaddict> Can unmodified debian packages normally be installed in Ubuntu? will there be problems with dependencies sometimes? 16:08 < LaserJock> yes 16:08 < LaserJock> there are differences 16:09 < LaserJock> although the source packages may not be different, *every* package in Ubuntu is rebuilt in an Ubuntu environment 16:09 < LaserJock> so the resulting binary packages often have slightly different dependecies 16:09 < greguti> I have a question.. 16:09 < whowe> QUESTION: Will Ubuntu packages work fine in Mepis or should you use the Debian packages, I have noticed on a machine with Mepis that it uses Ubuntu repositories 16:09 < danbuntu> QUESTION - by roughly how much do the packages change, what changes and why? 16:10 < cbx33> danbuntu, that's exactly what I was goign to ask 16:11 < LaserJock> whowe: they might, but there certainly isn't any way to say for sure. It's obviously best to use packages built for your distro 16:11 < greguti> QUESTION: how many people spend their time checking the MoM packages? You said it takes a lot of time, but for how many developpers? 16:11 < LaserJock> danbuntu: primarily the changes are in dependences or if there is something that Ubuntu is pushing forward with 16:11 < amnesia> post the questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please 16:11 < LaserJock> examples have been when we used a newer default Python and gcc version 16:12 < LaserJock> we had to "tweak" the dependecies to use those versions 16:12 < somerville32> LaserJock: Did you finish your presentation and now at Q&A or are we just in a Q&A "break"? 16:12 < LaserJock> Q & A break 16:12 < somerville32> :) 16:12 < LaserJock> I've got more 16:12 < LaserJock> some package change very little, like literally one line 16:13 < LaserJock> other are pretty heavily patched 16:13 < LaserJock> it depends on what Ubuntu wants to have to maintain 16:13 < LaserJock> because the next time around we are going to have to merge those changes back in 16:13 < LaserJock> so that goes to greguti's question of just how much time is this taking 16:14 < LaserJock> well, generally it takes all the developers a few months to get the process comleted 16:14 < LaserJock> Main has more paid developers and there is a larger packages/devs ratio 16:14 < LaserJock> so it goes faster 16:14 < LaserJock> to give you an idea 16:15 < LaserJock> there are 18656 source packages in Edgy Universe 16:15 < LaserJock> 1250 of them have ubuntu versions and have to be merges/synced 16:15 < tsmithe> woah 16:15 < La_PaRCa> QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian BTS and PTS automatic for each package or is it "by hand"? 16:16 < LaserJock> in Main the number is 5382 and 978 16:16 < LaserJock> so total in Ubuntu there are roughly 2000 packages that have to be manually looked at with each release 16:16 < LaserJock> La_PaRCa: some of both 16:16 < greguti> that's a lot! 16:16 < ajmitch> it is a lot 16:16 < LaserJock> and there are roughly 80-100 people doing it 16:17 < tsmithe> 20 each 16:17 < ajmitch> but not all of them are updated every release cycle 16:17 < greguti> that is an average of 20 packages for each people... 16:17 < Sionide> ajmitch, aye but dependencies etc might change so they still need testing (i guess anyway) 16:18 < LaserJock> yes, each package must be looked at, modified if needed, and rebuilt and tested befor it ever gets uploaded 16:18 < cbx33> Does one need an intimate knowledge of make/automake to be able to package "make" source tree? 16:18 < greguti> (thanks for all these informations, this Open Week irc chats are such a great idea) 16:18 < LaserJock> intimate, no, some is helpful though :-) 16:18 < tenshu> is debian merging changes with ubuntu packages the same way ubuntu does? 16:19 < LaserJock> tenshu: no 16:19 < LaserJock> Debian has a different maintainance structure than Ubuntu 16:20 < LaserJock> in Debian each package has a maintiane or even team of maintainers that "own" a package 16:20 < LaserJock> in Ubuntu we use team maintianence 16:20 < Lure> QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian systems automatic for each package or is it by hand? 16:20 < tsmithe> didnt we have that q? 16:20 < Lure> ^^^ by 16:20 < LaserJock> so MOTU ( Masters of the Universe) maintain *all* of the Universe repo 16:21 < LaserJock> ok, so an example of a semi-automatic system is a list I maintain for the MOTU Science team 16:21 < LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.list 16:22 < Lure> QUESTION: Is it possible that a package which has no bugs in debian has bugs in Ubuntu? 16:22 < tsmithe> LaserJock, not found 16:22 < tsmithe> :( 16:22 < LaserJock> ^^ is an example of a system we set up to track Ubuntu and Debian changes 16:22 < LaserJock> sorry 16:22 < LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.html 16:22 < tsmithe> cool 16:23 < LaserJock> adefelic1: yes it is possible, anytime you modify something there is a chance you introduce a bug 16:23 < LaserJock> we'd like to think we fix more then we introduce :-) 16:23 < Lure> QUESTION: Are there any plans to keep WINE up-to-date and available as a .deb within the official Ubuntu repos, rather than have it sit at the version it is now within them, leaving people to use a 3rd party repo without a gpg key (unless they compile from source) to get the latest version? 16:24 < LaserJock> well, that is always the goal 16:24 < gnomefreak> what version is it at now? 16:24 < gnomefreak> 22? 16:24 < LaserJock> we don't sit around all day thinking how we can give users old, crusty software 16:24 < LaserJock> we try to do our best to have as stable and updated of software as we can 16:24 < LaserJock> but wine is maintained by the Ubuntu community and it's a tough packages 16:24 < cbx33> compiling from source is pretty easy 16:25 < LaserJock> so you are more than welcome to help maintain it and we can help you along the way 16:25 < cbx33> esp for wine 16:25 < Lure> Question, what's the recommended route for some interesting in contributing to package maintaing? 16:25 < LaserJock> Get in contact with the MOTU team 16:25 < LaserJock> either #ubuntu-motu or the ubuntu-motu mailing list on lists.ubuntu.com 16:26 < LaserJock> MOTU does a lot of work on helping people learn to create and maintain packages 16:26 < LaserJock> tsmithe: I agree 16:26 < cbx33> it totally does 16:26 < LaserJock> ok, lets move on a little bit more 16:26 < cbx33> the pacakging guide is great too 16:26 < LaserJock> the second thing I wanted to talk about was Launchpad 16:27 < LaserJock> The first thing is you have to figure out how to use Launchpad. It is a rather large and sometimes confusing system but it also houses a lot of power. 16:27 < LaserJock> My primary advice to people who want to use Launchpad very much is to learn how to create your own URL. 16:27 < LaserJock> For instance, if you want to know about a particular source package use: 16:27 < LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ 16:27 < LaserJock> If you want to see all the bugs for a package just add on +bugs: 16:27 < LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source//+bugs 16:27 < LaserJock> Parts of the URL with the + in front are important, they are like modifiers to the thing that goes before it. In this case we want to see bugs for 16:28 < LaserJock> so really package maintainance in Ubuntu is broken down into 2 parts for the most part 16:28 < LaserJock> the first is the merge/synce process that we've already talked about 16:29 < LaserJock> where we sort of take a new snapshot of Debian 16:29 < LaserJock> the second part comes after we've done that and we've "frozen" 16:29 < LaserJock> and that is bug fixing 16:30 < LaserJock> for that we use the Launchpad bug tracking system called Malone 16:31 < LaserJock> ok, Lure can you pull in some more questions? 16:31 < Lure> Question - there's always talk of weather rpm, tqz, deb or what ever is better. Do you think that the current deb system is still relevent and suitable? 16:31 < LaserJock> well, that is an interesting question 16:32 < LaserJock> my answer is I haven't seen anything better that can be used at this scale 16:32 < LaserJock> I think debs are still very relevent and suitable 16:32 < Lure> QUESTION: Malone like Mal-Won or Maloney 16:32 < LaserJock> there are a major reason why Debian is as stable and secure as it is 16:32 < cbx33> mal-own? 16:33 < LaserJock> and it is also in development 16:33 < gnomefreak> ma-lone is kind of how i say it :) 16:33 < LaserJock> me too 16:33 < Lure> gnomefreak: +1 16:33 < ryanakca> m-alone :) 16:33 < Lure> Question : It seems to have a lot of work done with merging/syncing; But why does it take so long to get a package accepted through REVU? 16:33 < LaserJock> ah, good question 16:34 < LaserJock> the basic answer is (in my experience) it is very difficult to review other people's packages 16:34 < LaserJock> in fact I can often take more time reviewing a package than the person did actually making it 16:34 < woodwizzle> I'm still a big fan of portage. It solves most of the problems with dependencies and has excellent features for optional packages etc. It makes updating very easy too. Its just that loooong compile time that ruins it. I would like something new with most of those features. 16:35 < LaserJock> woodwizzle: yes, I'm a former Gentoo user. portage has some rather nice features 16:35 < Joe_CoT> yes, aren't we /all/ former gentoo users ^_^ 16:35 < Lure> QUESTION: Can you explain backports and stable release updates? How easy is it to get each approved respectively? What circumstances call for these to occur?, etc. 16:36 < LaserJock> tenshu: to continue answering your question, it's also a time managment issue. maintaining the packages we already have takes a lot of time too 16:36 < LaserJock> people want new packages 16:36 < LaserJock> people want the latest packages 16:36 < LaserJock> people want bug-free packages 16:36 < LaserJock> at some point we can't do it all :-) 16:37 < LaserJock> so we try to work on a little bit of all of those 16:37 < Lure> LaserJock: and it is only 6 month to do this all ;-) 16:37 < LaserJock> yes 16:37 < LaserJock> we spend a few months getting all synced up to Debian 16:38 < LaserJock> we spend a fair amount of time bug fixing 16:38 < LaserJock> people intersted in the timing should check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule 16:38 < Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates 16:38 < LaserJock> ok, yes 16:39 < Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackportsHowto 16:39 < LaserJock> once a Release has been released it is really frozen 16:39 < LaserJock> we don't add any totally new packages 16:39 < LaserJock> and we have 3 channels for updates 16:39 < LaserJock> -security (what the name suggests, security fixes) 16:40 < LaserJock> -updates (major and high impact bug fixes. "Ma, my computer ate my homework" 16:40 < LaserJock> -backports ( taking packages from the development release and building them for a stable release) 16:41 < Lure> QUESTION: why did you choose to use Launchpad and not some other bug-tracking and versioning system? What are the benefits of this system? 16:41 < LaserJock> we have policies in place (as Lure gave some URLs for) for all of these 16:41 < LaserJock> greguti: ah, well Launchpad is written by Canonical 16:41 < LaserJock> we used to use bugzilla for our bug-tracking 16:42 < LaserJock> but Canonical wanted to build a large infrastructure for distro and software development 16:42 < kudzubane> malone vs. bugzilla? 16:42 < LaserJock> so we have bug tracking, translations, specification tracking, meeting tracking, teams 16:43 < LaserJock> so when Launchpad and Malone seemed usable we switched over 16:43 < LaserJock> and now we are using it for package building and archiving 16:43 < Lure> QUESTION: Are there plans to make the REVU process documented a little clearer? 16:43 < LaserJock> of course :-) 16:43 < cbx33> short ans sweet I love it ;) 16:44 < Lure> QUESTION: are there formal regression tests for new/updated packages during the revu process? 16:44 < LaserJock> we have plans of making everything perfectly documented and running like a well-oiled-machines 16:44 < LaserJock> however, that takes a lot of manpower and will take some time 16:45 < LaserJock> kudzubane: revu specifically? 16:45 < kudzubane> LaserJock: yes 16:45 < LaserJock> REVU is primarly designed for brand new packages, ones that don't exist in Ubuntu/Debian currently 16:45 < kudzubane> LaserJock: my mistake, all packages 16:45 < LaserJock> we usually use bug reports for patches to existing packages 16:46 < ajmitch> there are plans afoot for distro-wide testing 16:46 < LaserJock> I can't speak a whole lot about Main on this 16:46 < LaserJock> but there are plans 16:46 < Lure> QUESTION: Where should bugs against feisty get filed in launchpad? Do we have to check whether the package differs to the one in Edgy? 16:46 < LaserJock> so far it's more-or-less been up to individual developers to test things before uploading 16:47 < LaserJock> diocles: file it like any bug. it's always helpful to say what release you are running and what version of the package you are using 16:47 < Lure> QUESTION - do you ever get time to sleep or is all just package, package, package? 16:47 < LaserJock> diocles: what's sleep? 16:47 < ajmitch> LaserJock never sleeps, he just keeps on going 16:47 < Lure> QUESTION: what does the final '4' mean in the package version: 0.9.22-0ubuntu4 16:48 < LaserJock> gumpa: well, the first time we changed it we used 0.9.22-0ubuntu1 16:48 < LaserJock> the 4 just means we've updated that package 3 more times 16:48 < LaserJock> since then 16:48 < Lure> QUESTION: Wouldn't it be better to have some of the newer packages make it into -updates instead of -backports? Sometimes people don't like enabling -backports and -updates. Maybe -updates would be appropriate? Example, the recent changes upstream for flashplugin-nonfree. It meant that flash was broken on newly installed dapper systems until you use -backport or manually install the -backport deb. 16:49 < LaserJock> well, that's a tough question 16:49 < Terminus> whoops just i meant they don't like enabling just -backports. sorry. i just woke up. =) 16:49 < LaserJock> we have worked out a Stable Release Updtate policy that should help clear up what does and doesn't go into updates and makes sure it is properly tested 16:50 < LaserJock> the problem is that -updates and -backports have a different focus 16:50 < LaserJock> -updates is focused at fixing bugs in an existing package 16:50 < LaserJock> that has to make sure that we aren't introducing new bugs 16:51 < Terminus> well, i would say that flashplugin-nonfree not working is definitely a bug. =) 16:51 < LaserJock> we want to make the user's system *more* stable not less 16:51 < LaserJock> -backports is focused more at getting the latest versions 16:52 < Lure> QUESTION: How do we 'get our hands dirty'? 16:52 < LaserJock> I'm not sure about flash but it does take more time to get into -updates then -backports because of the stability issue 16:52 < Terminus> i see. thanks. =) 16:53 < LaserJock> I'd really encourage everybody interested in contributing to check out the MOTU 16:53 < LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU 16:53 < LaserJock> and #ubuntu-motu 16:53 < LaserJock> these are the community volunteers that make Universe and Multiverse work 16:53 < LaserJock> and they are the entry point into learning how to package and maintianing packages in Ubuntu 16:53 < LaserJock> I can in now way do justice to the topic in 1 hr 16:54 < LaserJock> but hopefully I've given you a few things to chew on and perhaps answered a few of your questions 16:54 < Lure> Question: Sorry, what is REVU again? 16:54 < greguti> thanks a lot for your time 16:54 < LaserJock> we really like to emphasize community participation 16:54 < LaserJock> and you are really welcome to help us out, no matter what your skill level is 16:55 < LaserJock> we aren't just looking for programmers (although they are handy too ;-) ) 16:55 < LaserJock> tictacaddict: revu.tauware.de 16:55 < LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU 16:55 < Lure> tictacaddict: revu is read as "review" 16:55 < tenshu> yes i can tell it packaging don't required (much) programming skill 16:56 < LaserJock> it's the system we wrote to allow us to review and include packages from the community into Universe 16:56 < Lure> QUESTION: Wouldnt it make sense to have the auomatix packages available as standard but restricted depending on your location. i.e. if they are legal in your part of the world? 16:56 < LaserJock> zi99y: no 16:56 < LaserJock> Automatix is something that is used quite a bit in forums community 16:57 < LaserJock> but it is essentially obsolete 16:57 < LaserJock> and I really don't see it serving a purpose anymore once Feisty is released 16:57 < LaserJock> it filled a gap for a while, but it's probably time for it to go soon 16:58 < LaserJock> but that's just my opinion :-) 16:58 < Lure> zi99y: see also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonCustomizations 16:58 < LaserJock> we saw lots of breakage in the Dapper->Edgy upgrades because of third party repos 16:58 < LaserJock> and scripts like Automatix 16:58 < Lure> Is there any plan to have something analogous to debian-volatile? 16:59 < LaserJock> it's just hard on the system to do things like that 17:00 < LaserJock> tm|ubuntu: well, there has been a longstanding proposal for something called Grumpy Groundhog 17:00 < monkeric> LaserJock: this has been super useful. Just wanted to say a huge Thank You. 17:00 < LaserJock> it might be somewhat similar, although more towards debian's experimental repo 17:00 < LaserJock> ok, I'm done 17:00 < Lure> <_MMA_> QUESTION: Will the "becoming a MOTU" get a structure? ie: Step1, Step2 and so on? 17:00 < LaserJock> Thanks everybody 17:00 < LaserJock> _MMA_: yes it will 17:00 < tictacaddict> Thank YOU! 17:01 < kudzubane> thanks for sharing , it was enlightening to peep into a component of a the a new (to me) distro 17:01 < LaserJock> hmm, I guess I'm the last person of today 17:01 < greguti> thank you so much, ubuntu rules :-) 17:01 < tiagoboldt> sure, thank U! :D And the ones responsible for these sessions :D 17:01 < LaserJock> so if you have any remaning questions feel free to ask 17:01 < stani> thanks! 17:01 < tenshu> thanks LaserJock, and i'm hoping REVU will becom more efficient in a close future 17:01 < tenshu> =) 17:02 < Jucato> QUESTION: where's the food? don't they give those out after seminars? :P 17:02 < zi99y> any opensuse devs here? :D 17:02 < LaserJock> Jucato: ahh, Google is the place for food 17:02 < geser> Jucato: in the fridge :) 17:02 < amnesia> LaserJock: thanks for the info today 17:02 < LaserJock> tenshu: we do to 17:02 < zi99y> thanks LJ 17:02 < tenshu> =) count on me 17:02 < Jucato> heheh :) 17:03 < antihec> but do take care, things in the ubuntu fridge are of rare supply and sometimes a bit old ;-) 17:03 < LaserJock> antihec: maybe even a bit moldy :/ 17:03 < Jucato> eww... :) 17:03 < LaserJock> OK, make sure to come tomorrow if you can 17:03 < LaserJock> lots more info 17:03 < LaserJock> and fun!!! 17:03 < Terminus> thanks LaserJock =) 17:03 < antihec> LaserJock: :-) 17:04 < Jucato> thanks LaserJock!! 17:04 < tiagoboldt> packaging would have chatting for hours :D 17:04 < Jucato> lots more fun in the Ask Mark session :P 17:05 < tiagoboldt> sure 'how's space mark?' xD 17:05 < jonasj> thanks LaserJock, it has been very enlightning.