10:01 <@seb128> Good Afternoon Desktop Lovers :)
10:01 <@jono> gnomefreak, I will update the topic
10:01 < Panzerboy> jono: put it in the topic
10:01 < pitti> Good afternoon, Monsieur Bacher!
10:01 <@seb128> I'm Sebastien Bacher, and I'm working on the Ubuntu Desktop
10:01 <@seb128> and I'll lead the discussion for the next hour apparently ;)
10:01 <@seb128> so let's get started
10:02 <@seb128> looks like we have some Desktop Team members around
10:02 <@seb128> want to present yourself quickly guys?
10:02 <@Hobbsee> gah
10:02 < dholbach> Hello everybody, I'm Daniel Holbach, work with "magic" seb128 in the Desktop Team and help him to work on bugs, take care of accessibility related packages, look after Telepathy and Galago packages, try to keep our wiki clean, package new stuff, do a bunch of other things I forgot in the list and try to be there for everybody. I think the Desktop Team's secret to success is Hugging.
10:02 < Panzerboy> come on guys :)
10:03 <@seb128> other desktop guys who want to say something? ;)
10:03 < BugMaN> I'm BugMaN and i am admin of Italian Translation gruopu, and in free time i  help triage bugs in Desktop Team.
10:03 < pitti> also, all sorts of i18n
10:03 <@Hobbsee> sorry guys :(
10:03 < Grub_Now> pwned again
10:03 < shastry> Grub_Now: he lies :|
10:03 < buccaneer> Jee Willikers, I am in an Ubuntu Classroom
10:03 <@seb128> So the Desktop taking is basically the people who take care of the Ubuntu desktop and try to make it rocking
10:03 < Grub_Now> darn
10:03 < Grub_Now> Casanova: liar !
10:03 < shastry> hmpf
10:03 <@seb128> I've some notes for the session
10:04 <@seb128> I'll copy then by block and people are free to comment after each ones
10:04 <@seb128> does it work for you?
10:04 < Panzerboy> seb128: yeah
10:04 <@seb128> ok, let's go then :)
10:04 <@seb128> The main goals for the team are:
10:04 <@seb128> - update desktop packages when new upstream versions are available
10:04 <@seb128> - make easy for users to try new cool softwares by packaging them quickly
10:04 <@seb128> - have a good collaboration with upstream
10:04 <@seb128> - triage and fix desktop bugs
10:04 <@seb128> - make the Ubuntu Desktop ROCK!
10:04 <@seb128>  
10:04 <@seb128> Those are the major goals for the team
10:05 <@seb128> any remark or questions on that?
10:05 < crevette> Hello
10:05 < fafek2> How do you know which packages want Ubuntu users?
10:05 < rmunn> How does the team decide what falls in the category of "desktop packages"?
10:05 < Panzerboy> seb128: this includes all the xgl aiglx compiz beryl stuff?
10:05 <@seb128> fafek2: we look at forums, lists, bugs
10:05 <@gnomefreak> Panzerboy: no
10:05 <@seb128> Panzerboy: not really
10:06 <@jono> ssh people, lets do Q+A at the end of the tutorial section
10:06 <@seb128> there is a desktop-effects subteam for those
10:06 <@seb128> ok
10:06 <@gnomefreak> :)
10:06 < Keyseir> holy ops batman
10:06 < Panzerboy> seb128: ok :)
10:06 <@seb128> Where you can find members of the desktop team:
10:06 <@seb128> - the #ubuntu-desktop@freenode IRC chan
10:06 <@seb128> - the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list
10:06 <@seb128> we also look at launchpad bugs for desktop packages
10:07 <@seb128> so let's see the things you can do for the desktop team if you want to contribute
10:07 <@seb128> you can
10:07 <@seb128> * Work on Bugs:
10:07 <@seb128> Bugs managements is a good part of the work for the desktop team at the moment and required to prioritise the work and now what problems should worked first
10:07 <@seb128> .
10:07 < giskard> hi ;)
10:07 < mnepton> seb128: you also get yelled at by weird people in montreal.
10:07 <@seb128> some points about bug management
10:07 <@seb128> mnepton: right :p
10:07 <@seb128> - Places for desktop bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
10:07 <@seb128> - You can help the Desktop Team by joining the bug squad (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
10:07 <@seb128>  * 236 members to date
10:07 <@seb128>  * ~60000 bug mails in the last year ;-)
10:07 <@seb128>  * Hug Days
10:07 <@seb128>  * forward useful bugs and investigate with upstream
10:07 < Kenton> What is the workflow of a updated package?
10:07 <@seb128>  * make bug useful (reassign them to the right place, ask for required details, get debug backtrace for crashers, clean bugs that should be closed)
10:07 <@seb128> - help listing bugs that should be fixed for the next version of Ubuntu (or fixes to backport)
10:08 < Raiko> Hello
10:08 <@jono> Raiko, ssh
10:08 <@seb128> Kenton: let's discuss that after the presentation
10:08 <@seb128> there is not only bugs
10:08 <@seb128> there is also communication with other people
10:08 <@seb128> * Communication with other teams, upstream, Debian, etc:
10:08 <@seb128> We want to have a good relationship with the people we work with
10:09 <@seb128> - work on forwarding patches upstream (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/UpstreamDelta), having a low delta is better for everybody
10:09 <@seb128> - become point of contact between the distribution and upstream for packages you have an interest in
10:09 <@seb128> - work with other teams and Debian
10:09 <@seb128> people working on documentation:
10:09 <@seb128> * Documentation:
10:09 <@seb128> A good documentation help new contributors to know where to start and also not-so-new team members how to do specific things, or what is to do by example
10:09 <@seb128> .
10:09 <@seb128> - help by writing specifications (i.e: documents on launchpad and the wiki that describes the changes we want to get implemented and how)
10:09 <@seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam) (goals, list of things to do, documentation, how to start, etc)
10:09 <@seb128> - help the ubuntu-docs team
10:10 < Keyseir> gnomefreak, I ran into some weird problems trying to burn a dapper install cd. I downloaded the iso, but the md5sums were different. Reactivated the torrent, it repaired itself for a second. unactivate, broken again. So I tried to leave the torrent open while burning, but the burn came out as a different md5sum sequence and the original iso was an even different sequence even though bt was still open.
10:10 <@seb128> next point: packaging:
10:10 <@seb128> * Packaging:
10:10 <@seb128> Most of the work for a distribution is at the packaging level which means there is some place to contribute there too :)
10:10 <@seb128> .
10:10 <@seb128> - help doing desktop packages updates (update the package, test the new version, communicate issues with upstream is there is any)
10:10 <@seb128> - pick a package you have interest in (contacting the usual maintainer before starting to work on it might be a good idea) and start working on it. No need to have uploads right to start on a package, having your first updates mentored is usually a good start and way to learn. If you do a good job you can quickly become the maintainer for that package
10:10 <@seb128> - work on fixing issues by writting patches or backporting them from upstream and applying those fixes to the packages
10:10 <@seb128> - package new softwares
10:10 < tux75> salve a tutti
10:10 < tux75> ho un paio di problemi con la mia ubuntu..
10:11 <@seb128> you can also help testing:
10:11 <@seb128> * Testing:
10:11 <@seb128> - help testing GNOME, write specific test plans
10:11 <@Hobbsee> tux75: english only please
10:11 < tux75> sorry
10:11 < BugMaN> tux75: write in english please, (aspetta che finisce di parlare seb128)
10:11 <@seb128> and on other things too
10:11 <@seb128> * Other:
10:11 <@seb128> - new ideas: bring your good ideas of changes for the Ubuntu desktop and help to implement them
10:11 <@seb128> - teams: if you can motivate several people to work on a project creating a team around it is a good way to organize work: pda, printing, mono, telepathy, etc
10:11 <@seb128>  
10:12 <@seb128> I think I've listed most of the groups of things you can work on as a desktop team member
10:12 <@seb128> I'll mention some example of tasks to start now
10:12 < tux75> i've a problem with my ubuntu: when i try to log in a terminal or into a console, i receive a FAIL_DELAY unknown error.
10:12 <@seb128> Examples of tasks to start:
10:12 <@seb128> - If you feel comfortable enough to reply to upstream comment about bugs there is a list of bugs that should be forwarded upstream available on http://tinyurl.com/yzd8t3 (you can also pick bugs not listed there yet, there is plenty of them not categorized to forward)
10:12 <@seb128> - Clean old 'NeedsInfo' bugs
10:12 <@seb128> - help out with packaging, maintaining, merging
10:12 <@seb128> - review bugs with patches attached
10:12 <@seb128> - look at bugs tagged as 'ubuntulove'
10:12 <@gnomefreak> tux75: join #ubuntu
10:12 <@seb128> - write about the new cool changes happening to the UbuntuDesktop world for UWN: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
10:12 <@seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam to make them useful, especially for new contributors (having an updated and useful https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO would be nice by example)
10:12 < sabdfl> hey seb128
10:13 <@seb128> hello sabdfl
10:13 <@seb128> the starting point on the wiki for the desktop team is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/GettingStarted
10:13 <@seb128>  
10:14 <@seb128> ok, so that's probably enough informations presented
10:14 <@seb128> let's do comments on that now
10:14 <@seb128> I'm not sure if the format is ideal, that's the first session ;)
10:14 < dholbach> Considering the different teams: If you're good at any programming language, you will find that you can help out in the Desktop Team also, there are bindings and programs which use them for lots of different languages, for example Python, C++, Perl, Java and so on
10:14 < at2000> are KDE and Xfce managed by other teams?
10:14 <@Hobbsee> at2000: yes
10:15 <@seb128> is that clear for everybody what the desktop team is doing and what you can do to contribute and how to join?
10:15 <@seb128> at2000: yes
10:15 < daschl> seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
10:15 < dholbach> at2000: yes, there's the kubuntu-team and xubuntu-team in http://launchpad.net/people
10:15 < popey> makes sense seb128
10:15 < popey> seb128: can i ask a question?
10:15 <@seb128> at2000: the desktop team is mainly focussed on the Ubuntu desktop (like the Ubuntu CD desktop)
10:15 < mnepton> at2000: the workflows for those teams are roughly the same, with the same goals. mostly what changes is due to differences upstream.
10:15 < Panzerboy> popey: don't ask to ask, just ask :)
10:15 < popey> :)
10:15 <@seb128> hum
10:15 < fafek2> Don't you have too much responsibilities?
10:15 <@seb128> jono: any idea for the format of questions?
10:15 <@seb128> like one at time
10:15 < fulat2k> daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
10:16 <@seb128> and how we control that?
10:16 <@jono> I think its best to do things one at a time where we can
10:16 <@seb128> because if everybody asks away that's going to be not easy to manage
10:16 < fulat2k> any possibility to include beta releases of packages in a separate repo? :)
10:16 <@gnomefreak> seb128: have them pm 1 user with the questions
10:16 < popey> I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
10:16 < Riot777> is there some window manager currently more important than other for Ubuntu desktop team or you are trying to support all the same way ?
10:16 < finalbeta> Does ubuntu have any project that could use help on coding? perl/python/java/mono. I'm a mid leveled coder so fixing bugs is not my thing. Know several high languages and willing to learn a new one. Does Ubuntu have it's own programs apart from the installer?
10:16 <@seb128> ok, let's stop questions
10:16 < dholbach> daschl: C, Python, C++ sometimes, and others
10:16 <@jono> ok no more questions for now
10:16 <@seb128> and get one question a time
10:16 < popey> ok
10:16 <@jono> I will indicate when we accept questions
10:16 <@seb128> let me catch up
10:16 <@seb128> <daschl> seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
10:17 <@seb128> daschl: no need of any particular skill
10:17 <@seb128> and as much time as you want to spend
10:17 <@seb128> if you spend 10 min a week to confirm some bugs
10:17 <@seb128> or make an useful bug report
10:17 < snail> finalbeta: ubuntu has lots of programs other than the installer
10:17 <@seb128> or reply to an user support question
10:17 <@jono> ok everyone -> ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
10:17 <@jono> then we can pick them out
10:18 <@seb128> any of that is useful
10:18 <@seb128> you don't need any particular skill
10:18 < daschl> thanks
10:18 <@seb128> just pick something you feel comfortable doing
10:18 < burner> regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
10:18 <@seb128> might be replying to some user, filling a good bug, forwarding something upstream, etc
10:18 <@seb128> .
10:18 <@seb128> next question
10:18 < pitti> note: if somebody particularly likes a program and wants to help with bug triage, it would be incredibly helpful if you could establish a contact to upstream, forward bugs to him, discuss bugs, etc.; i. e. become the packages' 'ambassador'
10:18 <@seb128> <fulat2k> daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
10:19 <@seb128> .
10:19 < pitti> this doesn't require much programming skills, and is a valuable contribution
10:19 <@seb128> any language used by upstream
10:19 <@seb128> we don't write a lot of app from scratch
10:19 <@seb128> we get 95% of what we ship from upstream
10:19 <@seb128>  .
10:19 <@seb128> pitti has a good point
10:19 <@seb128> that's something which is especially appreciate
10:19 < fulat2k> seb128: point noted
10:20 < pitti> ... and is rewarded with lots of hugs, and even more important, better quality
10:20 < pitti> :)
10:20 <@seb128> if you have interest in a package and want to work on it and as a contact point for it that's really appreciate
10:20 < pitti> ... and KARMA
10:20 <@seb128> by the distro team
10:20 <@gnomefreak> lol
10:20 <@seb128> by upstream
10:20 < mnepton> finalbeta: pitti's and seb's comments address your question. if you're interested in writing new code rather than triaging, packaging, or applying small modifications, look upstream to the GNOME, KDE, or XFCE desktop projects.
10:20 <@seb128> and by users
10:20 <@seb128> <popey> I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
10:21 <@seb128> popey: you can create a specification for that, or mail a list with your ideas
10:21 < popey> which list?
10:21 <@seb128> ubuntu-desktop if that's something for the desktop
10:21 < popey> it is
10:21 <@seb128> ok, so mail the list
10:22 < popey> ok, will do
10:22 <@seb128> good
10:22 < popey> thanks
10:22 <@jono> everyone, prefix your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with QUESTION so we can spot them easily :)
10:22 <@seb128> <burner> regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
10:22 <@gnomefreak> :)
10:22 < dholbach> writing a specification and track it in launchpad is a good idea for writing a new app also
10:22 <@seb128> burner: I've to admit that .odt is not my preferred way ;)
10:23 <@seb128> the wiki is nice
10:23 <@seb128> you can also mail the desktop list (with your .odt if that makes the presentation easier for you)
10:23 < davmor2> is there a preferred level of detail for bugs I understand that this doesn't work isn't that uesful but what do you class as acceptable
10:23 < popey> thanks dholbach
10:24 <@seb128> davmor2: details on what you were doing, version of Ubuntu you are using
10:24 <@seb128> if the crash happens on a document, having an example attached is useful
10:24 < dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures may help in some cases also
10:24 <@gnomefreak> pitti: ambassidor = maintainer?
10:25 <@seb128> for a bug a debug backtrace (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash) is usually required to do something with the bug
10:25 < dholbach> gnomefreak: no, not necessarily. that's somebody being interested and working on the package
10:25 <@seb128> s/bug/crash
10:25 < pitti> gnomefreak: FSVO 'maintainer'; this is mainly a communication issue
10:25 <@gnomefreak> k
10:25 <@seb128> next question
10:25 <@seb128> <at2000> QUESTION: can everyone write a spec in launchpad? does it mean I intend to work on that spec or just suggestion of a feature?
10:25 <@seb128>  
10:26 <@seb128> at2000: anybody can write a spec yes
10:26 <@seb128> no need to work on it, though it make it easier to be implemented
10:26 <@seb128> we all are already pretty busy
10:26 < xerxas> being an ambassador for a package is an "abstract" role, right ? there's no such thing in launchpad, right ?
10:26 <@seb128> and there is not a lot of extra new things we can implement with only the core team work
10:26 <@seb128> xerxas: right
10:27 < sabdfl> xerxas: that's a good point, we should make that an explicit role
10:27 < xerxas> I think it would be a good idea
10:27 <@seb128> me too
10:27 < xerxas> I would like to become ambassador on at least one package, which one, I don't know
10:27 <@seb128> that would make things easier for upstream too
10:27 <@gnomefreak> i like that too but having more than one will get confusing
10:27 <@seb128> they would know who to contact
10:28 < xerxas> gnomefreak,  so we'll need some ambassador helpers
10:28 < DShepherd> /top
10:28 < xerxas> or "ambassador assistant"
10:28 < mnepton> gnomefreak: write the spec. :)
10:28 < Stemp> isn't one of the role of the package maintener ?
10:28 <@gnomefreak> i will work on it later today
10:28 <@seb128> Stemp: we don't have a fixed maintainer
10:28 <@seb128> next question
10:28 <@seb128> <DreamLost> QUESTION: translation is dealt upstream?
10:29 <@seb128> DreamLost: I'm not sure to get the question, and it's not really desktop specific
10:29 <@seb128> translations come from rosetta
10:29 < xerxas> sabdfl, what's up with this ambassador role ?
10:29 <@seb128> we import upstream translations and people are free to work on them from rosetta
10:29 < BugMaN> DreamLost:  translation in Rosetta start from Upstream
10:29 < xerxas> should I write a spec for launchapd ? or make a feature request somewhere ?
10:29 < wrjevowar> quit
10:30 < BugMaN> DreamLost: but some times ubuntu have new string in a package different from upstream
10:30 < jpetso> are the rosetta translations fed back to upstream, and if yes, how?
10:30 <@seb128> DreamLost: does that reply to your question?
10:30 <@seb128> jpetso: no
10:30 < DreamLost> yes, tnks
10:30 < davmor2> if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
10:30 <@seb128> jpetso: rosetta team is working on some feature to make easier for them to get the changes though
10:31 <@seb128> davmor2: questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
10:31 <@seb128> next one
10:31 <@seb128> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: Are there more localized teams wornking with the ubuntu-desktop-team.?
10:31 <@seb128> effie_jayx: can you explain what you want to know exactly?
10:32 < effie_jayx> there is an ubuntu grpoup
10:32 < effie_jayx> in my country
10:32 <@seb128> like if there is a desktop-team-<locale>?
10:32 < effie_jayx> are people already contributing from there as a group
10:32 < effie_jayx> I don't want to oversee the effort of other groups in my region
10:32 <@seb128> the desktop-team works on the Ubuntu packages
10:32 <@seb128> that effort is not splitted by region or group
10:33 <@seb128> you are probably speaking about a locoteam
10:33 < effie_jayx> ajam... I just want to know that ... thanks
10:33 <@seb128> the efforts are not overlaping, don't worry
10:33 <@seb128> ok
10:33 <@seb128> next one
10:33 <@seb128> <Jucato> QUESTION: are there Kubuntu/Xubuntu Desktop Teams too?
10:34 <@seb128> Jucato: yes, there is a kubuntu and a xubuntu team
10:34 < sabdfl> xerxas: perhaps chat with folks on #launchpad, then it could turn into a small feature spec, yes
10:34 <@seb128> next question
10:34 <@seb128> QUESTION: what would be the best way to find which packages are in need of maintainers/packagers?
10:34 < xerxas> sabdfl, thanks
10:34 <@seb128> no easy way at the moment I would say
10:35 <@seb128> look if the package is usually quickly updated
10:35 <@seb128> and on the work done on its bugs
10:35 <@Hobbsee> anything that has the maintainer set as debian qa, too.
10:35 <@Hobbsee> (i think)
10:35 < dholbach> if you're interested in a certain package, you can ask about it on ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
10:35 <@seb128> Hobbsee: that's for Debian
10:35 <@Hobbsee> seb128: true
10:35 <@seb128> Hobbsee: a package with no Debian maintainer can have somebody taking care of it on the Ubuntu side
10:35 <@seb128> that is a good question though
10:35 <@Hobbsee> seb128: true, but how likely is that?
10:36 <@seb128> it would be interesting to have some information at the launchpad level about that
10:36 < mvo> or we could use watch files from debian when available
10:36 <@seb128> like "how actively a package is maintained"
10:36 <@seb128> anybody having good idea on how to evaluate that?
10:37 <@seb128> mvo: right, please open a launchpad feature request (if not already filed) :)
10:37 < xerxas> QUESTION: can I close some bugs that are in NEEDINFO for a long time (what does a long time mean ?)
10:37 < sabdfl> we do track the idea of a maintainer for a package in Launchpad
10:37 < xerxas> (I'm having hard times making decision with malone )
10:37 < sabdfl> debian asked us to distinguish between the debian maintainer and the ubuntu maintainer or team
10:38 <@seb128> xerxas: question on -chat please, yes, usually I wait one month and close it if there is no reply to the request for informations about the problem
10:38 <@seb128> next question
10:38 <@seb128> <davmor2> QUESTION: if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
10:38 < kappa> the difference between versions of a package in Ubuntu and in upstream can be used as a measure of active maintaintership
10:39 <@seb128> davmor2: since edgy "apport" will created a crash file when a crash happens
10:39 <@seb128> davmor2: they are stored to /var/crash
10:39 < Grishkin> grishkin@ULTRA:/media/cdrom$ ls /var/crash
10:39 < Grishkin> ls: /var/crash: No such file or directory
10:39 <@seb128> davmor2: you can read about it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
10:39 < srikanthssn> seb128, what about drapper ?
10:40 < crosis> dapper, not drapper
10:40 <@seb128> srikanthssn: for GNOME programs bug-buddy is open after the crash and you can get the bt from it
10:40 <@seb128> srikanthssn: otherwise cf https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash (use gdb)
10:40 <@seb128>  
10:40 <@seb128> next question
10:40 <@seb128> <at2000> QUESTION: what is the process to submit a patch for a package? is this documented somewhere?
10:41 <@seb128> at2000: attach it to the corresponding bug to launchpad
10:41 <@seb128> if there is no bug open one
10:41 < leks> QUESTION: May I ask, why patches fixing eth0 (e1000) on my ibm t60 are in edgy, but not in feisty?
10:41 < leks> T60 Thinkpad
10:41 <@seb128> leks: question to -chat please, and I don't know about that, not really desktopish :)
10:42 < at2000> so someone will review the pack and check-in if appropriate?
10:42 < at2000> do I need to do anything to the bug report to notify someone to review?
10:42 <@seb128> at2000: correct
10:42 <@seb128> no
10:42 < at2000> ic
10:42 < burner> seb128: are there any plans for better remote access support via the Desktop team here or would that be more of a gnome/kde/xfce thing?
10:42 <@seb128> people will get the mail about your patch
10:42 <@seb128> burner: question to -chat please
10:42 <@seb128> next one
10:42 <@seb128> <daschl> QUESTION: say i want to fix a bug. this bux was fixed in upstream how can i get that into the ubuntu package? how can i handle the "ok i have a bug here, what should i do next"-thing?
10:42 <@seb128>  
10:42 <@seb128> daschl: that is a good question
10:43 <@seb128> daschl: open a bug to launchpad saying it's fixed upstream and you would appreciate a backport of the fix
10:43 <@seb128> pointing to the upstream commit or attaching a patch make the job easier for us
10:43 <@seb128> or pointing the corresponding upstream bug
10:43 < dholbach> we have a canned bug search for "patch attached"
10:43 <@seb128> we tend to backport only annoying issue and not every glitch fix though
10:44 < daschl> i c .. thanks!
10:44 <@seb128> so better to not flood us with request to backport every commit
10:44 <@seb128> we would be happy to backport lot of patches but it's a lot of work and we have only few people working on desktop packages atm
10:45 <@seb128> hint: you can help making a package better by co-maintaining it ;)
10:45 < daschl> so more people working = more backports available, right?
10:45 <@seb128> daschl: correct :)
10:45 <@seb128>  
10:45 <@seb128> next one for dholbach
10:46 <@seb128> <proppy> QUESTION: is there something like 'debian wnpp' for ubuntu ?
10:46 <@seb128> I think we have some wiki page for that
10:46 < bhale> revu?
10:46 <@seb128> dholbach usually knows the wiki better than me :)
10:46 < bhale> wiki.ubuntu.com/revu
10:46 <@seb128> bhale: wnpp is "I would like to get that packaged"
10:46 < bhale> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
10:46 <@seb128> bhale: REVU is only for things already packaged no?
10:46 < dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
10:46 < bhale> seb128: oh, i was thinking of something else then
10:46 < apokryphos> ubotu: revu
10:46 < ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
10:46 < bhale> ITP, not RFP
10:47 < bhale> lart me please
10:47 < dholbach> (ITP = Intent to package, RFP = Request for package)
10:47 <@seb128> proppy: <dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
10:47 <@seb128> here you go :)
10:47 < dholbach> which has moved to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates :-)
10:47 < proppy> seb128: thanks
10:48 <@seb128> np
10:48 <@seb128> next question
10:48 < mherweg> MOTU ?
10:48 <@seb128> <davmor2> QUESTION: How many package currently fall under the duristiction of the desktop team to give us some idea of how much work you have?
10:48 <@Hobbsee> lots.
10:48 < apokryphos> mherweg: /msg ubotu motu
10:48 <@seb128> https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs
10:48 <@seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs
10:48 <@seb128> 1813 bugs assigned
10:48 <@seb128> 2345 bugs subscribed
10:49 <@seb128> we looked recently with dholbach and all the desktop-bugs (closed one included) is like 7500 bugs
10:49 < pikkio> lots of work :)
10:49 <@seb128> and there is probably a good bunch not assigned to the team
10:50 <@seb128> dholbach: https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packages is empty, did it use to work?
10:50 < davmor2> seb128 so does that include the packages you have to update or is that just physical bugs
10:50 <@seb128> we used to have a table of the packages with number of bugs I think
10:50 <@Hobbsee> davmor2: physical bugs
10:50 <@seb128> davmor2: bugs
10:50 < dholbach> seb128: that's only for packages, where desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com is the maintainer
10:50 <@seb128> davmor2: I'm not sure about packages, it's about an hundred I would say
10:50 < dholbach> seb128: you mean https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packagebugs
10:51 < davmor2> okay
10:51 <@seb128> see the link from dholbach
10:51 <@seb128> it has a list of packages
10:51 <@seb128> dholbach: thank you :)
10:51 < dholbach> :-)
10:51 <@seb128> next one
10:51 <@seb128> (10 min left)
10:51 <@seb128> <jpetso> QUESTION: is there any way to work on packages on the currently stable release, without having to set up stable+1?
10:52 <@Hobbsee> by using a pbuilder, or dual booting
10:52 <@Hobbsee> !pbuilder
10:52 < ubotu> pbuilder is a system to easily build packages in a clean chroot environment. To get started with PBuilder, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
10:52 <@seb128> jpetso: not easy, some apps don't change a lot though
10:52 <@seb128> or pbuilder
10:52 <@seb128> or you can still help on the wiki, packaging new apps if the requirements are available on stable
10:52 <@seb128> or triage bugs
10:52 <@seb128> or reply to support requests
10:52 < pitti> some desktop applications are a bit hard to work on in chroots/pbuilder; for these, vmware comes in handy
10:52 < jpetso> ok :)
10:53 < giskard> pitti, what apps?
10:53 <@seb128> next one
10:53 < pitti> giskard: things like gdm, dbus, etc.
10:53 <@seb128> <davmor2> QUESTION: Do you favour slab over the standard gnome interface for menu's?
10:53 <@seb128> .
10:53 <@seb128> davmor2: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-slab
10:53 < pitti> or any app that requires newer libraries, etc.
10:53 < giskard> pitti, ahhhh! oki :)
10:53 <@seb128> davmor2: that's the spec about that, the reply is "no"
10:53 <@seb128> we will likely ship it on the CD
10:54 <@seb128> maybe with a desktop profiles app which allow to switch profiles easily
10:54 <@seb128> but we will not pick a different default than upstream
10:54 < strosset> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
10:54 <@jono> get your final questions in people!
10:54 <@jono> five mins left!
10:54 < strosset> \join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
10:54 < guebay> What does UTC mean? Here is 16:54 (Timezone Berlin). How can I calculate now what this is in UTC?
10:54 <@jono> although we can run over a little as there is no session next
10:54 < andre> strosset: /
10:54 <@seb128> next
10:54 < dholbach> guebay: date -u
10:54 < giskard> guebay, date -u
10:54 <@seb128> good question
10:54 < strosset> thx
10:54 <@seb128> <exo-griffith> QUESTION: You mentioned the ubuntulove tag in launchpad. What does it mean?
10:54 <@seb128>  
10:54 <@Hobbsee> guebay: see the tinyurl link in the topic, too
10:54 < giskard> dholbach, :
10:54 < jpetso> guebay: UTC = Berlin - 1
10:55 <@seb128> exo-griffith: that's an "if you look at something to do", like something easy to start and useful
10:55 <@seb128> dholbach has tagged a bunch of those bugs
10:55 <@seb128> I'm trying to do that too
10:55 <@seb128> we will put extra work on that and the TODO list too
10:55 < dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs has a "Tasks" section
10:56 < exo-griffith> so they're a good place to start then?
10:56 <@seb128> it's a way to make easy for people to find something they can start on
10:56 <@seb128> right
10:56 <@seb128> because there is so many component, not easy to know where to start
10:56 <@seb128> we are trying to figure way to make that first step easier
10:56 < exo-griffith> Cool. Thanks. I'll check them out. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntulove
10:56 <@seb128> if you have any suggestion on the topic feel free to join #ubuntu-bugs to discuss them at any time :)
10:57 <@seb128> or #ubuntu-desktop
10:57 <@seb128> next
10:57 <@seb128> <Jucato> QUESTION: what is the process for updates (bug fixes and security patches)? how long does it take for bugs that have been patched/fixed upstream to be patched in a current release?
10:57 < bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
10:57 <@seb128> Jucato: for stable updates: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
10:57 <@seb128> for unstable version?
10:57 <@seb128> as fast as we can come to it
10:58 < pitti> Jucato: for security bugs, we work independently from upstream releases
10:58 <@seb128> as mentionned before we have some thousand bugs
10:58 < leks> QUESTION: Did ubuntu decide between compiz and beryl already ?(go for compiz!)
10:58 <@seb128> and an hundred packages
10:58 < pitti> Jucato: when there is a patch, we review/QA/test it and issue an USN
10:58 < bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
10:58 < Jucato> alright, thanks! :)
10:58 <@gnomefreak> sabdfl pitti the spec for ambassadors is already made https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ambassadors
10:58 <@seb128> and only a couple of people working on them
10:58 <@seb128> so it can take some time
10:59 < apokryphos> leks: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please =)
10:59 <@gnomefreak> nvm
10:59 <@seb128> ok
10:59 < leks> sorry :-$
10:59 <@seb128> hour is over but there is no session next and still some QUESTION
10:59 <@seb128> so let's keep going :)
10:59 <@Hobbsee> seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
10:59 <@seb128> Hobbsee: -chat please
10:59 <@jono> ## well, you lucky people, there is no session for the next hour so seb is going to keep going while the questions are coming - keep posting the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
10:59 <@Hobbsee> seb128: that was from -chat
10:59 <@jono> :)
11:00 <@Hobbsee> seb128: i just missed the name
11:00 <@seb128> Hobbsee: oh, I pick them in order, no need to bother, thank you :)
11:00 <@Hobbsee> okay
11:00 <@seb128> Hobbsee: or do you want to copy them in order?
11:00 <@seb128> Hobbsee: (you skipped one)
11:01 <@seb128> waouh, lot of questions
11:01 <@Hobbsee> seb128: wasnt trying to.  thought you were picking and choosing, due to time.
11:01 <@Hobbsee> yes, exactly
11:01 <@seb128> ok, let's select
11:01 < Rawplayer> hi
11:01 <@Hobbsee> hence i picked one that you definetly want to answer, as it gets asked a lot
11:01 <@seb128> Hobbsee: please copy there the interesting one then
11:01 <@seb128> good
11:01 <@Hobbsee> i just did.
11:01 <@seb128> please include the name :)
11:01 <@seb128> so I know who I reply to :)
11:02 <@Hobbsee> it ran away...looking...
11:02 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <daschl> QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
11:02 <@seb128> let's give a quick reply to the previous one
11:02 <@seb128> <Hobbsee> seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
11:02 <@seb128>  Hobbsee Hobbsee|Remote
11:02 <@seb128> since that's a good question
11:02 <@seb128> no tutorial afaik
11:03 <@seb128> but an excellent idea
11:03 <@Hobbsee> wasnt jono writing one?  where would it be put?
11:03 <@seb128> so if anybody wants to work on one
11:03 < dholbach> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-August/019922.html has information for getting your patch uploaded into the archive
11:03 < daschl> i'm really lost when it comes to that topic ;)
11:03 < dholbach> attaching a patch to a bug report is a very good start, or filing a bug at all and testing patches that come up :)
11:03 <@seb128> any contribution to lower the first step for people who want to contribute is welcome :)
11:04 <@seb128> dholbach: the issue is that "writting a patch" is not something easy for beginners
11:04 < Dannilion> ;...;[p....,,,kkkkkk,,,,,llllll;pppp[##
11:04 < pointwood> yeah, a tutorial would be very welcome
11:04 <@seb128> we should document how to make a patch
11:04 < dholbach> surely not
11:04 < Dannilion> '''iiiioip'#
11:04 < Dannilion> #~#'''']]########
11:04 < daschl> i wanted to ask that too.. because i dont know how to create a patch but i thought this is not a desktop-related problem
11:05 < dholbach> "Patching packages!" a talk by pitti later this week
11:05 <@seb128> ACTION; jono to write some nice tutorial
11:05 < pointwood> what info should I provide when I want to report some hardware that doesn't work? example: a printer
11:05 <@Hobbsee> seb128: he's on the phone
11:05 < dholbach> Thu 30th Nov 18:00 UTC
11:05 <@seb128> ok
11:05 < dholbach> pointwood: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
11:05 <@seb128> daschl: good point, we are going to fix that :)
11:05 <@seb128> Hobbsee: next question ?
11:05 < daschl> thanks seb
11:05 <@seb128> np
11:06 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <pikkio> QUESTION: when a bug is fixed in launchpad, will be always fixed in upstream as well?
11:06 <@seb128> no
11:06 <@seb128> pikkio: few upstream read launchpad bugs at the moment
11:06 <@seb128> if you can encourage upstreams to do so you are welcome :)
11:06 <@seb128> otherwise we need to "forward" bugs upstream
11:06 < pikkio> ok, thanks :)
11:06 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: What are priorities of Desktop Team now, apart from specs for Feisty Fawn?
11:06 <@seb128> that's a part of the bug triage work I mentionned before
11:07 <@seb128> if you are confident a bug is upstream you can file it to their bug tracker directly too
11:07 <@seb128>  
11:07 < pikkio> i'll do it :)
11:07 <@seb128> fafek2: catch up with bug flood, package new versions of desktop apps
11:08 < dholbach> and package new exciting apps :-)
11:08 <@seb128> working on documentation etc to make easier for people to join the team
11:08 <@seb128> the specs have already enough goal to keep the core team busy for the cycle actually
11:08 < fafek2> I mean what's the vision? How Ubuntu should look like in your opinion?
11:08 <@seb128> any specific point?
11:09 <@seb128> we are likely to have a composite manager installed by default for feisty (compiz or beryl)
11:09 <@Hobbsee> the releated question there:  <kai[sds]> QUESTION: what is the long term vision for the ubuntu-desktop beyond feisty? what are the areas you are not satisfied with yet (regarding features not bugs)?
11:09 <@seb128> and I think we might give a try to tracker
11:09 < dholbach> we'll have exciting Telepathy bits and bobs :-)
11:09 <@seb128> and telepathy too, right
11:09 < giskard> yeah!
11:09 <@seb128> no "long term" vision
11:10 < jonibo> What's the advantage of tracker over beagle???
11:10 < bhale> "the coolest new stuff"
11:10 <@seb128> we want better visual experience
11:10 <@seb128> and the best from upstream world
11:10 <@seb128> visual bling is compiz or beryl atm
11:10 < bhale> tracker is more lightweight than beagle
11:10 < kai[sds]> seb: so basically gnome defines that vision?
11:10 <@seb128> we will likely work on a better GDM experience too
11:10 <@seb128> kai[sds]: not only GNOME, but upstream
11:10 <@seb128> compiz or beryl are not part of GNOME
11:11 < jonibo> bhale: due to it not being Mono?
11:11 <@seb128> tracker neither
11:11 < bhale> jonibo: no
11:11 <@seb128> jonibo: beagle is another option
11:11 <@seb128> we have nothing decided yet
11:11 < giskard> seb128, compiz or beryl will be handled by ubuntu-desktop?
11:11 <@seb128> and that's not going to be a quick discussion
11:11 <@seb128> better to not start it here today :)
11:11 <@seb128> giskard: ubuntu-desktop-effects
11:12 <@seb128> giskard: member of ubuntu-desktop will look at it too for pretty sure
11:12 < giskard> ok.
11:12 <@seb128> especially if that's part of the default desktop
11:12 <@Hobbsee> seb128: *grin*
11:12 <@seb128> next :)
11:12 < giskard> :)
11:12 <@seb128> Hobbsee: next one please :)
11:13 <@Hobbsee> QUESTION: How do you choose which program to use as default (using the compiz/beril example)?
11:13 <@seb128> hum
11:13 < kai[sds]> but shouldn't people think about some kind of direction and not just go with the upstream flow? i mean upstream there are lots of nice innovations, but they probably dont look at the desktop as a whole
11:13 <@Hobbsee> (seb128: there are a lot of beryl/compiz related questions)
11:13 <@seb128> that's not easy to choice
11:13 <@seb128> there is our feeling about the software
11:13 <@gnomefreak> that is not really the -desktop teams products
11:13 <@seb128> how upstream is responsive
11:13 <@seb128> user feedback on it
11:13 <@seb128> etc
11:13 < mvo> the technical comite will choose in the end AFAIK
11:14 < jonibo> biggest question I would have about desktop effects is:  how do you avoid leaving people with old graphics card behind?
11:14 < WebMaven> jonibo: make the effects optional.
11:14 <@seb128> fallback to metacity for such configs
11:14 <@seb128> we need to work a good way to know if effects are working fine for that though
11:15 <@seb128> it'll be one box to click to have effects or not anyway
11:15 <@Hobbsee> seb128: i think that's a wider question than just compiz/beryl, fyi - how do you decide out of all gnome apps which to include?
11:15 <@seb128> <seb128> that's not easy to choice
11:15 <@seb128> <seb128> there is our feeling about the software
11:15 <@Hobbsee> ah, missed that
11:15 <@seb128> <seb128> how upstream is responsive
11:15 <@seb128>  user feedback on it
11:15 <@seb128>  etc
11:15 <@Hobbsee> sorry, was scrolling for more questions
11:15 <@seb128> np
11:15 < jonibo> But that means you are maintaining two systems: one with and one without effects.
11:15 <@seb128> lot of activity :)
11:16 <@seb128> jonibo: any other solution?
11:16 < jonibo> no, not really.
11:16 <@seb128> we don't have neither
11:16 < jonibo> but it's important that some people keep working on systems without effects...
11:16 <@seb128> but if you figure one we will be happy to read about it :)
11:16 < jonibo> to make sure that they still work ok.
11:16 <@seb128> yeah
11:16 <@seb128> to be honest metacity is stable enough
11:16 <@seb128> and we don't expect lot of work on it
11:16 < jonibo> hard to work up an interest to work on systems without effects when you can have them...
11:16 <@seb128> but we will keep shipping both
11:17 < jonibo> good.
11:17 < Amaranth> jonibo: Don't worry, I'm sure there will be people that don't use beryl/compiz just because they don't like it. :)
11:17 <@seb128> not true
11:17 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <elvstone> QUESTION: Is there any cooperation going on between the Kubuntu and the Ubuntu Desktop Team? I'm a soon-to-be Kubuntu laptop user.
11:17 <@seb128> some people like visual bling
11:17 <@seb128> some other don't
11:17 < jonibo> alright... I hope that's the case.
11:18 <@seb128> Hobbsee: on the area used by both we try
11:18 < jonibo> i think the metacity/compiz separation is quite safe... it's when more effects get integrated into the core applications that things get sluggish on older systems.
11:18 <@seb128> elvstone: on the area used by both we try
11:18 <@seb128> like pitti looked at some kubuntu printing bugs after updating cups I think
11:19 < elvstone> seb128: okay :)
11:19 <@seb128> mvo has a look on some kubuntu specs similar to the Ubuntu ones he works on too
11:19 < elvstone> does Kubuntu have a "Desktop Team" of its own?
11:19 < dneary> Hi
11:19 < dholbach> dneary: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
11:19 <@Hobbsee> elvstone: kubuntu has a whole lot of people in #kubuntu-devel
11:20 < Lure> elvstone: there is just kubuntu-team
11:20 < apokryphos> elvstone: not specifically. Since the main difference in Kubuntu is the desktop
11:20 <@seb128> elvstone: no, "kubuntu-team" is sort of "KDE Desktop"
11:20 <@Hobbsee> elvstone: so sort of.
11:20 <@seb128> other parts are common
11:20 < elvstone> okidok.
11:20 < Lure> elvstone: and you can join kubuntu-team (if you want to be notified of kde bugs in launchpad)
11:21 < elvstone> Lure: ah. okay.
11:21 < elvstone> i really want my laptop now :) it will be in stock 1 dec.
11:21 <@seb128> Hobbsee: next?
11:21 < pip> Hello all
11:22 < apokryphos> elvstone: cool; be sure to join us in #kubuntu around then :)
11:22 <@Hobbsee> [03:21] <oz__> QUESTION: are there thoughts to include a preconfigured install-server in ubuntu?
11:22 < elvstone> apokryphos: will do.
11:22 < pip> Hobbsee: did I miss something exciting ?
11:22 <@Hobbsee> pip: yes, but there are logs.  see the /topic for more info
11:23 <@seb128> hum
11:23 <@seb128> "install-server"?
11:23 <@seb128> that doesn't look like "DesktopTeamIsh" to me
11:23 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <DreamLost> QUESTION: do you use any automatic testing tools? Given being hard to test GUIs...
11:23 < jackflap> so did any suse developers show up?
11:23 <@seb128> good question
11:23 <@seb128> DreamLost: not at the moment
11:23 < jackflap> hehe
11:23 <@seb128> but that's a good remark
11:23 <@Hobbsee> jackflap: #ubuntu-classroom-chat for chat
11:23 <@seb128> and something we would be happy to set up
11:24 < oz__> seb128: are only desktopish questions allowed now?
11:24 <@seb128> there is that "Announcing dogtail: a GUI automation and test framework"
11:24 < somerville32> Did I miss Sebastien Bache's session?
11:24 <@seb128> which could be interesting to look at
11:24 <@Hobbsee> oz__: as that's what this team is about, yes
11:24 < eugene> dogtail is pretty useful for automating gui testing
11:24 <@seb128> if something is interested to make that happen
11:24 <@seb128> oz__: that's the "Desktop Team" session, so better to ask desktop questions yep
11:25 <@seb128> oz__: there is plenty of non-desktop session during the week for other questions :)
11:25 <@seb128> somerville32: still doing Q and A on it
11:25 <@seb128> DreamLost: do you want to work with us to set up some automatic testing suit for the Ubuntu desktop?
11:25 <@seb128> that would be really cool :)
11:26 < DreamLost> :) stil a litle over my league im afraid :)
11:26 <@seb128> k
11:26 <@seb128> still a good thing
11:26 <@Hobbsee> seb
11:26 <@seb128> if anybody has interest in it
11:26 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: Do you develop Ubuntu administration applets?
11:26 <@seb128> let me know :)
11:27 <@seb128> fafek2: no, we use gnome-system-tools for that at the moment
11:27 <@seb128> we already had several discussion if that would be worth starting writing new tools from scratch
11:27 < mvo> seb128: if software-properties is a administration applet, then yes, some
11:27 <@seb128> we didn't for now though
11:27 <@seb128> right, depending on what you can "administration applets"
11:28 <@seb128> package managers are administration tools too :)
11:28 < Rawplayer> webmin?:)
11:28 <@seb128> Rawplayer: I'll not reply to that :-P
11:28 < juliux> webmin is evil;)
11:28 < samgee> quit
11:28 < mherweg> yast!
11:29 <@seb128> next question
11:29 <@seb128> QUICK
11:29 <@seb128> before having the chan going out of control :p
11:29 < N7C> hi ppls
11:29 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <bhale> QUESTION: Who does Daniel Holbach's hair?
11:29 <@seb128> bhale: I suspect it's mvo
11:29 <@seb128> but we can't say for sure
11:29 < giskard> ahahah
11:29 < dholbach> bhale: EEHHHHH?
11:30 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: will Network-Manager ever get installed by default, probably in feisty? plus updated configuration tools, to use it?
11:30 <@seb128> pitti?
11:30 < pitti> that's the plan
11:30 <@seb128> leks: I think it'll be by default for feisty
11:30 <@seb128> pitti will know better
11:30 < siretart> .oO( if only nm wasn't that buggy... )
11:30 < pitti> we will teach it to work better with manual configurations and integrate better with network-admin
11:31 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: Will the brown ever be ditched, as mark formerly said once? (After the fourth release or something)  sabdfl?
11:31 < pitti> yeah, and bug fixing is a must
11:31 <@seb128> pitti: thank you :)
11:31 < _ion> If i may say something related to the earlier tracker vs. beagle question: tracker is not only an indexer, but it also functions as a generic metadata store. For example, if programs use tracker for tagging files, the tags are shared between all programs. Nautilus and the Gtk file dialog could hypothetically have a similar tagging widget as F-Spot has. A library could be made so that any program could easily use such widget.
11:31 < Amaranth> _ion: We know.
11:31 < _ion> amaranth: I'd guess the person who asked the question didn't.
11:31 < jayteeuk> pitti: How do I get involved?  I'd love to see NM as a default install.
11:31 <@seb128> leks: you will be happy to know that Ubuntu is orange since dapper ;)
11:31 < sabdfl> Hobbsee: we have theme teams who are working on complete themes, and if one of those meets the test of being (a) classy and (b) distinctive it could become a new default theme
11:31 < sabdfl> leks: ^^^
11:32 < apokryphos> leks: this is covered well in Mark's wiki page. Basically little in Ubuntu will be very static, so yeah, it may well (and has) changed over time
11:32 <@Hobbsee> sabdfl: you want to reply to leks, i'm just pasting questions :)
11:32 < pitti> jayteeuk: test it thoroughly, report bugs, work with upstream to get them resolved
11:32 < pitti> jayteeuk: we need all hands we can get for this
11:32 < giskard> jayteeuk, and triage bugs ;)
11:32 <@Hobbsee> seb128: <somerville32> QUESTION: One of the SABDFL's goals for feisty was the adoption of emerging desktop technologies. What are these emerging desktop technologies and what goals have the desktop team set to align themselves with this direction?
11:32 < apokryphos> somerville32: one of two window managers possibly. Beryl or compiz. Some information:
11:33 < apokryphos> ubotu: beryl
11:33 < ubotu> Beryl is a window manager that takes advantage of an OpenGL accelerated X environment. See http://forum.beryl-project.org/ - Help in #ubuntu-xgl
11:33 < apokryphos> ubotu: compiz
11:33 < ubotu> Compiz (compositing window manager) and XGL (X server architecture layered on top of OpenGL) - Howto at http://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager - Help in #ubuntu-xgl - See http://tinyurl.com/pw5ez for Kubuntu systems
11:33 <@seb128> fafek2: I've read your note about disk-admins on the other chan. The code was not good, but right would be nice to have a new tool for that. I might work on it that cycle, depending on busy I am. If you want to start a such project you are welcome :)
11:33 < jayteeuk> pitti: And is there a spec available on the wiki or similar to help me understand how NM interacts with other parts of the system?
11:33 < pitti> jayteeuk: not to my knowledge; but feel free to ping me in #ubuntu-devel about this
11:33 < apokryphos> somerville32: what will probably happen is that for able systems (good enough graphics cards) they'll adopt one of these window managers by default. These have some cool effects, such as wobbly windows, nice animations, etc. See above pages
11:34 <@Hobbsee> seb128: [03:33] <eliteforce> QUESTION: when will a really stable version of ubuntu be released, without xx bugs in core components (:
11:34 < jayteeuk> pitti: OK thanks.
11:34 <@seb128> somerville32: cf discussion on compiz,beryl from some questions ago, we might have a look on beagle or tracker too, and dholbach and the telepathy team are looking on telepathy
11:34 <@seb128> eliteforce: when upstream stop writting boggus program :)
11:35 < somerville32> :)
11:35 <@seb128> eliteforce: joke aside, we do our best to fix bugs, it's not always easy since there is lot of them
11:35 <@seb128> dapper was pretty good I think
11:35 <@seb128> edgy was a very short cycle so it has not been easy
11:36 <@seb128> anybody can make a difference here by helping fixing a bug :)
11:36 < daschl> ill try to do so
11:36 < daschl> :)
11:36 <@seb128> excellent
11:37 <@seb128> you can get hugs on #ubuntu-bugs for any bug you fix, just let know dholbach :)
11:37 < daschl> so i did it with gnu/linux in general.. a friend of mine helped me with my first steps and now i want to give back to the community what i got
11:37 < daschl> i just realized that i can talk german with dholbach ;D
11:37 <@seb128> that's the spirit :)
11:38 <@seb128> hehe
11:38 <@seb128> with mvo or pitti
11:38 <@seb128> too
11:38 <@seb128> lot of german guys around :)
11:38 < amarillion> I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
11:38 < juliux> daschl, see also #ubuntu-de
11:38 < eliteforce> i think "stable" releases should be delayed sometimes, to get more bugs fixed
11:38 < daschl> oh :D .. i just wanted to sign the code of conduct but it seems that the keyserver need some time
11:38 <@seb128> <binary2k2> QUESTION: If you install a *ubuntu-desktop metapackage, is there an easy way to remove all the dependences, so you remove the desktop environment?
11:39 <@seb128> binary2k2: apt-get remove *ubuntu-desktop
11:39 <@seb128> apt-get autoremove
11:39 <@seb128> that feature is available for apt since edgy
11:39 < jonibo> daschl: keyserver has been problematic for the last week... i've been trying too.
11:39 <@seb128> hugs go to mvo for that one
11:39 < fabbione> eliteforce: stable doesn't necessarely mean bug free. stable means that has a constantly predictable behaviour.. including bugs
11:39 < leetcharmer> hail, all :D
11:39 < davmor2> seb128 shouldn't those be sudo apt-get remove
11:39 < elvstone> seb128: so apt-get autoremove *ubuntu-desktop?
11:39 <@seb128> eliteforce: we delayed dapper for 6 weeks
11:39 < elvstone> seb128: or is it two commands?
11:39 < leetcharmer> how's it goin' everyone?
11:40 <@seb128> elvstone: no, "apt-get autoremove"
11:40 < stalefries> !hi | leetcharmer
11:40 < ubotu> leetcharmer: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-classroom!
11:40 < elvstone> seb128: ah. okay.
11:40 <@seb128> elvstone: it cleans everything marked as to remove
11:40 < elvstone> seb128: alright.
11:40 < leetcharmer> I'm here for open week :D which part are we at?? Packaging?
11:40 <@seb128> davmor2: correct, faster to not type sudo to every command on IRC though :)
11:40 <@seb128> leetcharmer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
11:40 < Amaranth> leetcharmer: desktop team. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
11:41 <@seb128> davmor2: we are still doing question for the 15utc one since the 16utc slot was free
11:41 <@seb128> ups
11:41 <@seb128> that was for leetcharmer
11:41 < leetcharmer> seb128, thanks :D
11:41 <@seb128> np ;)
11:42 < leetcharmer> what did we learn so far? (if I can ask here.)
11:42 <@Hobbsee> !logs > leetcharmer
11:42 <@seb128> leetcharmer: we are doing questions and answers for one hour now, not easy to summarize
11:42 <@seb128> <somerville32> QUESTION: What do you feel is the biggest obstacles facing the Ubuntu desktop team at this time and how do you plan to overcome these obstacles?
11:42 <@Hobbsee> seb128: were you after more questoins pasted, or will you scroll for htem?
11:43 <@seb128> Hobbsee: I just picked one
11:43 <@Hobbsee> bah, that's what i was about to paste :)
11:43 <@seb128> did you copy one I didn't notice?
11:43 <@seb128> hehe
11:43 <@Hobbsee> seb128: the other:  [03:37] <Grishkin> QUESTION: will KDE4 , firefox 2 and any other new apps be ever backported on dapper?
11:43 <@Hobbsee> answer both :)
11:43 <@seb128> somerville32: clearly the number of bugs at the moment I would say
11:44 <@seb128> overcome: make easier for people to help and try to get upstream helping us when possible too
11:44 <@seb128> there is just too many of them for the number of people looking at them at the moment
11:44 <@seb128> we tried to work lot of extra hours, that doesn't scale
11:44 <@seb128> we need your help :)
11:44 <@gnomefreak> firefox and kde4 shouldnt be backported anywhere afaik Hobbsee
11:44 <@seb128> your being anybody who wants to give a hand
11:44 <@Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i didnt ask the question
11:44 <@seb128> Grishkin: no
11:44 <@Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i'm just pasting
11:45 <@gnomefreak> oh
11:45 < Grishkin> seb128 , thanks
11:45 < stani> will kde4 be ready for kubuntu feisty?
11:45 <@Hobbsee> no
11:45 <@gnomefreak> stani: not liekly
11:45 <@seb128> Grishkin: the backport team does backport apps
11:45 < elvstone> definately not i'd say.
11:45 <@Hobbsee> stani: there's a preview in the repositories at the moment, but it wont be out in time.
11:45 <@seb128> those are not easy to backport though
11:46 <@seb128> especially if they can break other apps
11:46 < TLE> Hey so there's a session on pacakging in about 15 min right ?
11:46 <@seb128> like firefox is used by epiphany-browser, devhelp, yelp, etc
11:46 < RadiantFire> i was under the impression a feisty CD was going to be remastered to contain KDE4 whe it was releasd
11:46 <@seb128> TLE: correct
11:46 < jonibo> GSmartMix?  Will it be ready for Feisty?
11:46 <@Hobbsee> ask the gsmartmix devs
11:47 <@seb128> RadiantFire: might be, that's not Ubuntu though, that would be a special milestone CD for KDE4 probably, better to ask to the kubuntu team
11:47 < apokryphos> RadiantFire: if it's out in feisty's time, yeah. But not for dapper, almost certainly.
11:47 < apokryphos> (i.e. kde release date is still open; it may be feisty+1 time till it's out, depending on KDE TB plan of action)
11:48 <@seb128>  QUESTION: I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
11:48 <@seb128> amarillion: what do you find hard?
11:48 <@Hobbsee> seb128: i think we're planning to have repos for it, at some point.  not sure for which releases though
11:48 < nosse> what should I learn if I want to squash bugs? and is there an irc channel somewhere full of people wanting to help me to start?
11:49 < dholbach> nosse: #ubuntu-bugs
11:49 <@seb128> as dholbach said
11:49 < amarillion> for example: I joined the mailing list for a while. But the amount of bugs is completely overwhelming. So I stopped that immediately
11:49 < dholbach> and ubuntu-bugsquad@lists.ubuntu.com of course
11:49 < stani> A maybe small request is possible in the channel topic to mention also the current topic, eg now "Ubuntu Desktop" I know it is possible to look it up,etc... but it would be more nice.
11:49 < amarillion> It would be nice if there was a way to say... get 10 random bugs each weak
11:49 < nosse> thanks
11:49 <@Hobbsee> seb128: did we want to have a 10 min break between sessions?
11:50 <@seb128> Hobbsee: yep, we want
11:50 <@seb128> we will stop on that bug fixing one I think
11:50 <@seb128> thank you everybody for the questions
11:50 < apokryphos> I quite like the KDE method of "JJ:" prefixes for bugs, which indicates Junior Jobs
11:50 < apokryphos> k
11:50 < jonibo> thanks for the great work, Desktop Team!!!
11:50 <@seb128> many were good one and we had interesting discussions I think
11:50 < amarillion> apokryphos, that sounds like a nice idea
11:51 <@seb128> feel free to join #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-bugs if you have any other question
11:51 <@seb128> jonibo: thank you :)
11:51 < jonasj> j #ubuntu-desktop
11:51 < daschl> thank you seb128
11:51 < jonasj> oops, sorry
11:51 < stani> thanks
11:51 < giskard> when packaging?
11:51 < apokryphos> few minutes
11:51 <@seb128> amarillion: we discussed that exact thing during the conf we had recently
11:51 < daschl> time to make tea ;D
11:51 <@seb128> amarillion: that's somewhat what the "ubuntulove" task is for
11:51 < Stemp> thank you seb128
11:51 <@Hobbsee> time to go to bed!
11:52 < apokryphos> 'night Hobbsee
11:52 < giskard> thank you seb128 :)
11:52 < Lesley> nite hobbsee
11:52 <@Hobbsee> night apokryphos
11:52 < daschl> Hobbsee: what time is it?
11:52 < Dannilion> Goodnight Hobbsee
11:52 < mL_> quit
11:52 <@Hobbsee> daschl: 4am
11:52 <@seb128> amarillion: we will work in that direction anyway, making clear notes on how to start and having list of easy tasks for that
11:52 < daschl> Hobbsee: ooh :D .. gn8
11:52 <@Hobbsee> daschl: coudlnt you see some of hte times as i pasted them with the questions?
11:52 <@seb128> Hobbsee: thank you for helping on the meeting
11:52 <@seb128> Hobbsee: you did a good work :)
11:52 <@seb128> thanks everybody
11:52 < amarillion> seb128: thanks, I would like to see that
11:52 < daschl> Hobbsee: i didn't remeber them
11:52 <@dholbach> thanks seb128
11:53 < Jucato> thanks for the class
11:53 < davmor2> thanks seb128
11:53 <@dholbach> :-)
11:53 < javamaniac> hugs hour?
11:53 <@seb128> hi andre :)
11:53 < fafek2> Have a nice day! Good buy!
11:53 < fafek2> * bye!
11:53 < andre> :)
11:53 <@Hobbsee> seb128: :)
11:55 < elvstone> damn i really have to go shopping when i get off work in 3 min.. will be a bit late for packaging.
11:55 < elvstone> everybody stall it! :)
11:55 < somerville32> :D
11:56 < Celldweller> what in the world is this room for lol... do i have to enroll
11:56 < Celldweller> sounds fun
11:56 < newz2000> elvstone: it's logged and there are other packaging sessions planned
11:56 < newz2000> Celldweller: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
11:56 < nalioth> elvstone: there will be transcripts
11:56 < apokryphos> Celldweller: check the channel topic for all the info.
11:57 < bettsp> Has anyone converted the Open Week calendar to iCal format? That way, people could add it to Evolution and it'd do the time zone'ing automatically
11:57 < Jucato> nalioth: offtopic... where are the transcripts for the NWN Ubuntu classes I missed?
11:58 < levander> Jucato: you've checked the URL in the topic?
11:58 < TLE> bettsp: there's a google calender with appropriate timezones it can imported into evolution
11:58 < somerville32> TLE: Is anyone keeping the google calendar up to date?
11:58 < Jucato> levander: yeah. I was sort of looking for transcripts, not just logs, but thanks anyway :)
11:58 < rmjb> TLE: evolution isn't respecting the timezone difference
11:59 < TLE> somerville32: I assume it's being done automatically :: rmjb oh sorry, I wasn't aware if that
11:59 < TLE> rmjb: well then export from google to ical, wouldn't that work ?
12:00 < davmor2> !logs
12:00 < ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
12:00 < rmjb> I have the google calendar in evolution in ical format, but it didn't shift the times